Lots of good advice here, although some I do not agree with. Question, you say she is fat, Are you feeding her grain, how much etc? You may want to revise how much you are giving her, if any considering she is not really being worked. Don't forget about your elbows. Monty Roberts has a saying, "He who rules the feet, rules" Please get some professional help & do not put yourself or your son on her until she has more respect for you.

On Claiming Space I liked all that Julebar said and I just want to address some of your questions because by doing so I don't have to do housework and go trim my young horse's feet LOL! You already said you want more space prior to entering the arena. So lets start there. A very wise man once told me: "a horse either has a habit of holding onto a thought or letting go of a thought". And this becomes a way of life for a horse. Trust me I want a horse who has a habit of letting go of a thought so they can go with my thought when I ask. Sounds like your horse has a pretty strong habit of holding on to a thought. That same wise man told me: "A horse is always trying to get his feet to where his thought is" and "If a horse's feet and his thoughts are in two different places there is trouble in the household." I find that all to be very true and pertinent to good horsemanship and good riding! You asked about a flag, and I have one and use it if needed. I made it myself so it is not a fancy carrot stick or licorice stick or whatever. You can use a plastic bag tied to a tree limb, it doesn't matter. It isn't the equipment it is the intent behind the use of it. I personally like a good long marine rope lead with a leather popper at the end. I can make plenty of noise with that popper if I need to. ANYTHING you use, should not trouble your horse and many are troubled by some things when they are used to make a lot of commotion. So whatever I used to get their attention, I always get them ok with it by rubbing on them and being close to them. I don't want them afraid of a flag or a crop or whatever, I just want them responsive. If you want your mare to get better about moving out of your space then you can do as Jule said and I agree backing is an excellent request to get a horse responsive in other areas, and if a horse is not responsive to backing you will find them not responsive in other areas. Dang I have a point, I swear. Ok, lets say you and your mare are standing some where and you want to move her away from you to the right, so she will need to move her head shoulder and neck and feet off to the right. If you are going to "claim the space" she is in, as you take a hold of the lead rope below the halter and start stepping towards her neck a

one more comment ( promise): i understand why the option of "getting rid of" this mare is not an option for you--please do not let her hurt you out of emotional attachment--all the advice from all the good folks on here with good intentions is only as good as your use of it and she is your mare--if you intend to make this a "forever keeper" then you owe it to yourself and your child and all others who would have to handle this horse if you got hurt to make sure that if you cannot get her to make changes then you must seek out one with experience to do that for you--you are investing in safety here. this is not a buy it-retrain it-sell it situation so investing in experience whether the trainer is an advertised professional or not will pay off--check the facilities and get references and be visible if you choose to place her with someone!!!!

1st----thank you kindred for saying in the way you did what i would have said but it would have taken me three hours to get my ducks in a row and at least 3 pages to express it----thank you. rearing is a form of spooking (think getting away from the pressure of the bit or the command as the same IMHO as getting away from the pressure of what is spooking her) and is probably easier to ride out than the buck or spook if you know where to move your weight to counterbalance----otherwise a nasty wreck can still happen with you being her pillow between her and the ground....... you will get alot of ideas on how to claim space--i do use a short dressage style whip or a riding bat to emphasize my point until the movement of my hand can get the response i am looking for--i let the horse's response level dictate what i use and how much pressure i need to do it with. everytime i ask a baby to "whoa" with my voice i also make a cue sound that i will use the entire time that "baby" is with me along with the verbal "back" until just the slight sound and the physical movement of my index finger will back them away from me, their hay, the feed bucket--i just find alot of uses for the back up because going in reverse is not natural for a horse due to the blind spot of their sight--so it gives me a level of trust--i never back the horse into anything that would hurt that trust. you will find that horses that go back easily (again IMHO--sorry--covering my butt) give in other ways more easily. of course this results in giving me mor space at MY discretion--not the horse's. the only thing i have ever done with anything tied on the end of a "stick" (my training whip) is a plastic bag duck taped there and used as a way of rubbing a horse that had matured without ever being "touched" and we were pressed for time----put the horse in a chute, commenced advance-retreat, touch/release, (see ya'all i can be taught--but i got taught that probably before mr clinton was out of diapers---i am not talking bill LOL.) ended with a body massage with the plastic bag and getting the little gal to already understand that she could touch it and it would leave her face--building her confidence--use to use a gunny sack but those things actually cost $$$ these days. if you try to move her front end away from you--tap her on the shoulder about 3-4 times and then just push her over--make sure that you have stopped her where her feet are such that if you have to push her front end over she can cross the foot closest to you over in front of the other front foot---always try to remember that the more comfortable it is for her to respond the more natural it will become for her to. just keep that procedure up but when you push her front end over and she does it--immediatly reward her with a gentle rub between her ears and then let her rest a moment (i usually count to 10 and that way i have a rhythm to my work---you will find that she will become responsive to just touching her shoulder becomes a sideward step--really handy if she steps on your toe---watch her carefully--sometimes i give some really good strokes just for shifting her weight over as if she is getting ready to move and then go ahead and cue again--then push. i expect there might be debates on all this and NOW you see that i should have run it by kindred because she seems really good with condensing it and getting the info really easier to read---sorry--but this is my way of doing it and i am certainly open to reading all ideas that come on here to help you. i am glad you do not label her with a negative---if you do that you will not have your heart in creating the changes she needs----again--God bless you for what you are trying to do so there is one less "throw away" cast on a system that has no more room..........

Thanks Julebar and Kathy! Hey, Julebar, what's the best way to get that "space" in the arena? When I lead her outside the area, she gives me some space (I would still like more), but inside the areana, when I lead her she wants to walk slowly, direcly behind me - I can't seem to get her to walk off to my side a bit. And, if I walk toward her (like I'm walking into her and want her to move to the side), like I want to claim space, she just stands there. Have either of you used one of those sticks with a flag on the end to wave it around to get their attention? I have a lunging whip, and that works fine in touching the ground behind her for a trot, but it's too long when up close. Re: the bareback issue, that's an interesting thought regarding weight distribution. However, she's so fat that the bone in my rear would unlikely be felt! I just want to try this against the saddle so I can narrow down the problem. I honestly think she just needs work and time, because I have noticed an improvement in her riding attitude the last couple of times I've ridden her. This mare's not all bad. I don't want to make her sound like a monster. She is just not like any horse I've ever had and I need to adjust my thinking and approach when it comes to "training" her. What I DO like about her is she doesn't spook easily when riding and is not at all flightly. I can move things around her and it doesn't seem to phase her. She also comes right up and has never turned away from me when haltering her. I just want to get a handle on the biting behavior and the rearing. Hey, at least she hasn't tried to buck! I've found rearing much easier than bucking with regard to balance. :)

>bareback??? alot of horses that are saddlebroke, well trained, dependable animals blow the first time they are rode bareback--for some reason we could start them bareback and go to the saddle easier than we could start them in the saddle and go to bareback....i am for sure open to any comment on that--we always figured it had something to do with placement of weight over their center or some other factor--not to mention that if you are already tense she will sense it twice as quick when she feels the tenseness in your butt!!! < Hi JB, I think it is probably related to weight distribution and being comfortable with leg contact. When you have a properly fitted saddle the rider's weight is distributed over a larger area of the horse's back. When a rider sits there bareback, that weight is really concentrated in one area, add in the seatbones bearing down into the horse's back and that can be quite disconcerting to the horse, esp a sensitive one. Thought I don't think it should result in a rodeo act. If it does, I would say that horse is not very prepared as a riding horse. The other factor that might come into play relates to what you said about tension from the rider. If the rider is tense and gripping with their legs, esp. lower leg that can bother the horse. When in a saddle the foot is resting on the stirrups and not held tightly to the horse's side like a tense leg might do. That is my .02! Kathy

lots of good advice here for you. i agree with trying to work it out for her if you have the experience----this is not a mare straight off the range or out of the pasture as an unhandled 2-3 yr old. this is a mare that has displayed inappropriate behavior and obviously got the results she wanted. this mare can hurt you worse than an unhandled horse simply because her behavior has become her way of communication and getting her way........kindredspirit hit alot of nails on the head with her response. if it is not a physical issue, and it really does sound like learned behavior, and you really want to keep this mare then i would seek the help of a professional. when you work with her at first--only when she does everything you want her to with the right attitude from the ground should you even consider mounting her again. put her in the round pen and push her out of your space--relax, push her out of her space, relax--just keep claiming space but do relax at the first show of her relinquishing it to you. bareback??? alot of horses that are saddlebroke, well trained, dependable animals blow the first time they are rode bareback--for some reason we could start them bareback and go to the saddle easier than we could start them in the saddle and go to bareback....i am for sure open to any comment on that--we always figured it had something to do with placement of weight over their center or some other factor--not to mention that if you are already tense she will sense it twice as quick when she feels the tenseness in your butt!!! one of the reasons you can look out your window and see one of the kids just sitting bareback on one of the unbroke yrlings. or 2 yr olds sans any restraint but totally relaxed--kids are good for that with their fearless selves...LOL. just stay safe----if she is daring enough to sling a hoof at you--might want to consider a helmet while working with her--helmets are not just for riding. the best of luck to you.

Thanks Irlanda - that's also a good piece of advice. I took her out today and lunged her, with halter and bridle, but no saddle. She trotted easily and didn't try to bite once and stood pleasantly still while I groomed her and put her bridle on. No biting. Soooo, since the saddle is out of the picture, and I am not on her, her behavior was good. I have noticed the cinching causing some of her anger, too. I have to cinch in series, because she bloats up. I notice by the time I'm on her, the saddle is almost loose. There could be pain associated with the cinch in general (the cinch is a good, wide cinch and it's an improvement on the older one I had before). I guess the next step is to try her bareback in the trot to see if she rears (however, the previous owner said she didn't like bareback - that doesn't make sense to me - seems any horse would prefer bareback).

I would see if the cinch is not what pinched her bad at one point in her life and now she really dislikes saddles...one of my mares hates the cinch tightened sooo much that she has literally killed herself throwing herself back if you tighten it all at once!!! I thought at first it was the saddle or her back, now I know for sure its the cinch, so when we saddle her, we put the saddle on her back, just barely hook the cinch and let it dangling and walk her from the stall to where I will mount, then tighten it just a bit, then walk her a little bit more until we can tighten it completely, this extra 5 minutes made all the difference in the world. She now knows we know that she is afraid of pinching and that we are doing all we can so we dont hurt her....she also had the bad habit of trying to bite the tip of my boot when our work out was over, she wanted me off or wanted me to take her to her stall, I decided to scratch her nose with my boot when she does this, so now she kind of thinks about it twice....good luck, a biting horse is a dangerous horse, you need to get her biting into control..call Parelli

>She was better 1.5 years ago, which is why I believe I'm a big part of the problem in not spending enough time working with her. She trotted and loaped (although it was uncomfortable for me, and she didn't seem thrilled) when I was trying her out, but she had very little reining abilities. Sounds like she was not very trained to the basics.in >I 've recently switched bits and she has improved a lot in her understanding of turning. Now that I've started in working with her again, I've seen these changes of rearing/biting. She loves to be groomed, and I can halter her and bridle her easliy. Her overall demeanor, though, is one I haven't fully trusted. This says A LOT. If you don't trust her she can't trust you. If your feelings around her are defensive she is going to be defensive as well. Horses are so in tune to us and our intent, she reads you better than you know. >If she's spunky and racing around the pasture, I dare not be in the pasture as she run up and kick right near me. Those are just ill feelings, getting close to you or probably any human is going to bring that out in her. > Also, she doesn't respect my space when near me, so will push her body into me if she wants more scratching under stomach, etc. Also in walking near me, she isn't giving me the space I need. What if you changed this to say, I AM NOT ASKING HER TO KEEP HER BODY IN HER OWN SPACE, I AM NOT CLEAR ABOUT WHERE MY BOUNDARIES ARE. It is up to the human (bigger brain and all) to show the horse where the boundaries are. You know how clear an electric fence is? Well that is how clear you need to be. >I wouldn't say she has a soft eye, but then she has her moments and is kind. She is a very dominant mare (which the other owner told me about) and really pushes her way around the pasture. If she sees my dog, and is feeling cranky or mad, she'll go after my dog with ears flat (especially if I'm on her back - she takes her anger out at my dog). She walks good on the lead, but when I tried to get her to trot next to me, when my 9 year old son was on her, she tried to bite at my hands, with ears back, because she didn't want to trot. I can see her behavior before she is about to bite/rear - all of the body language you described (ears back, tail swishing, and sometimes stomping her feet). So, I'm prepared before it happens, and I try to catch her with a firm "NO". Do you know what a self imposed hissy fit looks like? Well that is what you need to consider doing when this horse is showing you she is feeling bad and wants to act out. You need to lose your mind in your own space, get her to STOP thinking all those ill feelings she is thinking BEFORE SHE STARTS ANYY OF HER BEHAVIORS. >As I set the saddle on her, when she's in the barn, she turns her head very quickly to bite at me. I tell her no, and hold the halter - then she just uses her mouth/teeth and sort of bites out at the air as if she is just frustrated and wants to get it out. She cocks her head and just chews at nothing, like she is dying to bite something. If the wood rail is there, she bite on the rail. This is all before anything has been cinched or any pressure put on her. She is preparing that the saddle will get cinched and I will get on. It's her way of saying she doeesn't like me or the saddle on her. Try not to take it personally, she is not doing things to you, she is just trying to express her feelings the only way she knows how, and I am not advocating she act out on those feelings but you have to address them. You have to be proactive rather than reactive. Sounds like you have your work cut out for you. This horse needs clarity, she needs to know the rules and she needs to have you show her the rules. BE CLEAR, have a plan, NOT AN AGENDA. A plan is adjustable, an agenda has an emotional attachment to the outcome. You need to be ready to adjust your plan, remain unemotional and show your horse what needs to be between you and her. Th