Thanks so much for your post, and for starting a great thread, cloudryder! Your final comment, about the teeth and the Spanish bits, was something I only recently learned more about. I was looking for instructions for making a hand-tied halter and learned a lot about how how the vaqueros trained reining with the bosal and mecate and then moved to the spade bit -- and then how the horse could be reined with a silk ribbon when the training was "finished" years later.

Carol, you aren't alone, sitting on the sidelines!! ;)

I bred a mare at 3, who foaled at 4. I had my reasons for doing it at the time... However, I didn't know she actually "took" (the other mare who was older, did not) so... she went into training at 4. Well, we pulled her out when she was 9 months along (had to talk a vet into doing a check-- and wasn't he surprised!) So between the young age and the relatively vigorous training-- the foal was born healthy but TINY. He's still small. He's a fine little guy (about 14hh now at 3) but he's always going to be on the short side. He is not disproportionate.. he'd just make a very fine PAINT PONY now LOL. I don't plan to do it again. (Breed young, probably no younger than 5 to foal at 6). I do have a friend of mine who raises ponies-- hackneys, shetlands, etc. Some of the folks "In the know" in those breeds and minis-- apparently routinely let all the young mares run with a stud. They say 1 out of 4 yearling mares may get pregnant and carry to term. And when they're born, they'll be TINY. Maybe half the size they should be. But you can register them as a mini! Hmmmmm... The thing is... they really aren't "genetically" small. Some of the old-timers talk about first foals from maiden mares being small. I wasn't a believer... as I had mares that had really nice sized babies the first time out. But those mares were 6+ at first foaling. But I can see how this could very well be true with young mares, and probably those in hard training ... and probably a pretty good "given" for mares subject to both. At any rate... the horses I've raised, didn't get their full height at the withers until between the ages of 6-7. Many of them didn't really "bloom" until they were about 6. I know I read in many places that a horse has 90% of its growth as a yearling. I don't know what expert penned that in what century, but apparently a lot of other horse book authors have copied it. None of mine ever fit that pattern in height or weight. And it's never been clarified if that's at 12 months or a long yearling about to come 2 or what. Mine seem to have been about 60% on height during their yearling year and 50% or so on weight. There were some I was sure would be ponies forever, but matured well within 15-15.3 range. I notice that a lot of horses (QH, Paint etc) selectively bred for Halter classes, do seem to gain a lot of early height (well into 15hh as yearlings, pushing 16hh by 2). I'm sure they're not "mature" , but yes they sure can look it, compared to horses of other bloodlines. The thing is, these 15+hand yearling "monster" halter colts... don't seem to go on and become 17-18hh adults though. This is just my own observation.... I have to surmise that their individual "growth curves" may look a bit different than other horses. I wonder if there's been any studies done on bone density in ref to fast growth rates like that? As to starting a horse at 2, I still like to do that (under saddle). And light/average work after that. I don't want to do much really intense until about 4, and moving into 5. However, my own "personal beliefs" about horses and ages and so forth, runs in almost total opposition for what the market and industry demands. I have a 4yo gelding that has been a bit of a slow developer so I've given him time to mature. However, even at this age, people expect him to be "finished" for something, or they won't consider a purchase. He's ready to go learn as skill right now... But that's not what people want, and the current goofy market makes things even stranger. Personally, I'd like to see most all of the futurities backed up a year... but that's not going to happen. I don't know if I'll ever get one into a futurity-- maybe a derby or something. Do you play the game how you need to, to have any little success or just sit on the sidelines with your beliefs to keep you company? --Carol

I am so glad you posted that. And the AQHA this very year will have top money paid to two year olds. It's really sad. Not only are some of their bodies pushed, what about their minds? Just as a young child cannot absorb much in a timeframe so are the young horses. John Lyons also wrote a great article on this called " When growth plates close". As for the western pleasure horses the man made peanut rolling lope will eventually break a horse down also. Not only is it un natural its crippling! Even though the rule book prohibits it judges still place it and trainers still train it. Another pet peeve of mine is bits. And yes I know the old addage about soft hands ect. But why if my horse shows in a snaffle as a two three yr old why can't my horse of 20 still do so? To me it would be an attribute of many years of soft hands. Hell, lets just try to get to bridleless riding that would be an even better class! But until enough people stick together and picket or sign petitions or something none of it will stop. Like someone else said money is the driving force!

glennh, Junction City, KS? Are you stationed out of Ft. Riley? I used to live not far from there and had many officers living in my neighborhood as well as students whose parents were stationed there. They are the best! Anyway, about starting horses. Everything done with horses needs to be done with a common sense approach (something a lot of people are lacking these days, especially those with more money than brains...). There are many, many ranch horses started under saddle at 2, but not asked to work hard until 5 or later who are still being used on the ranch well into their 20's. I just had a discussion last night at Equifest with a woman who has also had horses she rode into their 20's and even 30's. My first horse was close to 20 before I ever started riding him. He had been a barrel horse in Little Britches and used on the ranch. He was started at 2, but not allowed to be used for rodeo until he was 7. He was in his 30's when we retired him, and I moved on to another horse (this one was between 15-20 when I started riding him and I rode him for a good 10 years). These were healthy, sound horses because we weren't allowed to push a horse too hard too young, and they were always well cared for, including a sound feeding program and good farrier care. I've seen the old, sway backed, thin horses that look like something out of an Ace Reid cartoon, or worse, and it makes me sick. That type of thing can be so easily prevented with just some common sense. It's like the breeder who told me her 20 yr old mare foaled 3 months early because she was old, and the mare was in poor condition because she foaled early. Now, common sense tells you that 20 is not old, and the mare foaled early because she was in poor condition. Both mare and foal died. This happened because this "trainer" and "breeder" had no common sense, a poor feeding program, and refused vet care. Just goes to show some people are too stupid to own horses.

I work with arabian show horses in Oregon. The Alder Park Arabians that we learned from did not start the ground working training till the horses were about 3, and riding till about 4. When I get off of this deployment in about a week, I will be headed home to Junction City. My filly will start getting Parelli Savvy training from me in the level one course. I am not in any hurry to ride her. I want her to be the best horse she can be, nothing will be forced. Maybe when She is 4 to 4.5 I might start riding a little. God Bless You All Glenn H.

No Problem Cloud,,,, I was just explaining that top level Western Pleasure Horses are the same .....They all break Down.......and you had added at the end of your post that maybe the ....''Western Pleasure horse did not'' ??? and you added ....''LOL'' ???? I have shown at the top Level of the Western Pleasure horse Industry,,,,,And I do now own 2 top level mares.....and past horses also......I have been with the same trainer since 1984,,,,,,,and although I do not agree on him starting the 2 yrs olds and showing and pushing them......he understands me also on my points. Therefore we have a good training relationship. He respects me in what I Beleive to be humane treatment of my animals I have trusted into his care and I Beleive in his training practices. But just not the young ones,,,,,,which I ground break myself....and get under saddle and send to him as a late 3 yr old. I have seen too many ''breakdowns'' and I have owned a few myself and learned the hard way in competition.....Yes,,,,,,,,''IT IS'' ...''Western Pleasure'',,,,,,but my horses do so much more.....Showmanship.......Hunt Seat......Horsemanship.......''Pattern classes''....And I have done some endurance with my gelding that passed away..... even Jumping in AQHA Competition.....So many laugh and make jokes about ''Western Pleasure'' Horses....... But to each his own....... Jan

fhm, many breeders start their broodmares early, as this is to be their job for the rest of their productive lives. many do so as a result of indifference. others breed early due to ignorance. i personally, do not breed before four years old. often, not before their sixth year. but, this is just my way.... everything i do while training a horse is done to maximize each horses learning ability...

fhm, if my comments offended, please accept my apology. i was merely being facetious. ALL horses are pushed too young, in my estimation. As a youngster, i was taught to push young horses to their limits...but not break them down. each horse, as with all humans, have different levels of learning. it is our responcibility to discover these limits...and work within them, as a frame-work to development. this includes western pleasure horses, as well. regardless of each persons training capabilities, this should be the foundation each of us works from. after all, it's all about the horse, and if more people used that as a guideline, fewer horses would be injured.

This brings another question to my mind .....maybe for discussion ??? Why do some breeders allow the breeding of young mares who have not reached their ''Maturity'' ....or growth ??? I am talking of some people,,, and I have known some top breeders who have bred 2- and 3 yr old mares,,,,,,and a lot of 4 yr olds......I do know of one in particular breeder,,,,,,who does this on a regular basis,,,,,,an Arabian Farm In TX....one of the tops in Straight Egyptians......Who breeds 2 yr old mares !!!! To me it is ''Ludicrous'',,,,,The mare herself is not even mature in her own growth !!! And I have heard that Arabs are late horses to mature anyway. No wonder ''Many Breeders ''have so many aborted and absorbed foals !!!!