((smiles)) I meant he feels to us like he can do it..((collection work, higher levels etc..)) sorry for the misunderstanding. I think thats the dressage talking..lol .. I ,in all honesty ,dont know alot about the training of cutters, or cow horses but this is the way the warmbloods are. if we push to soon... it will never happen.. we focus on working them deep and over their back to get them stronger and develop the right muscles to make the work much easier on them.In return they develop stronger back muscles, stronger hocks and able to carry theirselves in a better frame without the strength of a humans force. (got off the subject... sorry)

What a post, much can be learn to do and not to do.Haveing been in the equine serv industry for 27 years I have seen a decline in quality, an increase in qanity, and no place to go with them. Yes we all dream of haveing the super horse, but at what expense to the others. I'll tell you that vets and farriers love what is being done, it is job security. The vets have the neddle to inject hocks and other joints, the farrier has more fancy products than ever before and more comeing out each year.It is not just the quarter type but all breads, 15 years ago when the land boom started here in colorado, the people wanted smooth gaited horses, so the traders went east and brought em here. What they bought for 300 and sold for 3000+ was breeder culls, now we have culls breeding culls, now we have more culls to keep us busey. This has happened in all aspects of the horse industry. 30 years ago there where not as many horses and to many farriers, now there are to many horses and not enough farriers. Some here on ES have been around a long time, others just a while and read all the mags, folks I once wrote a letter to one of the majer horse mag's bout a bougus foot care artical, they wrote back to mind my own bussness the where there to sell mag's not shoe horses. Remember this when ya read them articals about nutrition. When a client ask which supplement to use, I ask if they have done there homework. They say what do ya mean? I ask if they have done a soil sample,forage sample, and water sample? Hoaw can you supplement when you don't know what your horse is deficiant in? Like shasta said just my 2 cents worth and a lifetime of learning telling it like I see it. Hoss69

Filly, one small correction in your post...it's not the horse that feels it can handle the stress of heavy physical activity...that's strictly in the human realm. 30 and more years ago, horses were better able to withstand the vigors of learning to work with humans at a much younger age (2 yo), much better than today. In that much, I'll agree with lazy. However, with the over-breeding being done today, many recessive genes are being combined, becoming dominant. This is where the finer-boned horses are comming from. Horses who's pedigree looks like a REAL redneck family tree, a wreath, are producing far too many bad traits. If more people would breed away from common ancestors, the horses would be far more capable of handling the stress of a vigorous lifestyle. The propensity to breed as close as possible to one single horse, in the "hope" of creating a super horse, is at fault. Of the few hi-dollar horses we hear about, how many poor-quality animals are produced, of which, we never hear about? It is incumbent upon us, as breeders and managers, to breed quality animals, which can strengthen the various breeds/disciplines, as well ensure the future of the industry. Or, as my philosophy is...If you can't ADD to the gene pool, don't SUBTRACT from it... ;) JMHO.....

the wild horses dont have to worry about bits, saddles, humans, and all the extra gadgets that are used so not to be concerned about growth and maturity on their bones and joints..Just becuase the horse feels ( to us) like it can handle it the added stress on the joints etc.. doenst necessary mean in a few years you wont have a broken down horse. No matter what maintenance you keep. I also dont think the competition horses get the " ok youve earned your keep at 6 yrs old so whatever you want is yours?" either. have never seen a show horse turned out at 6 or 7 after winning.. they continue on their quest for MORE. But we all have our own ways of thinking and I realize that..guess thats what makes the horse world go round. I think you do what you feel is best , I just think it takes a horse longer to mature then we give them time to do . if you read clouds first post they arent grown.. .. I noticed that we warmblood folks start alot later then the QH"S.. we think they need time to grow into theirselves. edited

Being I am one who starts their Horses at an early age and has a comprehensive conditioning program as well as a work program, I often ponder the big question "What about nature?" Do young horses or have young horses over the eions just lay down till they are physically mature? Natural selection I believe it is called! As in any animal, humans, canine, equine and so on and so on those that servive are strong in body and strong in servival skills. Myself, I will not buy or breed to a horse with known joint and bone problems just to name a few of the reasons I choose wisely what Stallion will bred my mares. Legs, cow breeding, performance records are primary to me. Broken down horses I do not have any and my top Cow Horse was started at 2 stepped into the show penn with 50 rides on her, won a year end Championship at 3 as a Snaffle Bit Futurity Horse, and on and on till just today at 6 and yes in foal won a cow horse pro am, a check in Non Pro, and sits tonight at leading Amateur High Point Champion for a four day AQHA/Nrcha show. If a wild horse travels Mountainous terrain running with its herd grazing on what nature provides then a well managed and cared for equine will undoubtedly do equally if not better. Maybe I should be angry at my parents for all the baseball, skiing, bike riding I did braking bones, tearing knees and so on in my childhood. Maybe to them it was pride not dollars to see a son be successful just like a horse owner who raises his or her child to see it go to the top and beyond for years. So I will still start my long yearlings, still have my compassion and thirst to ride into a Futurity with dreams of making the finals or better yet holding that nice big $100,000 check in Reno. To then turn around look at that animal and tell it "you can have anything you want for the rest of your life for getting us here!" That's my 2 cents worth and I know many never understand it isn't the money it's raising an animal breed for a job taken to heights most read or dream themselves. Since ADMIN doesn't want us to post on post etc but edit -- My reply to those think I turn my horses out at 6 no their carriers are not over at 6! No they are not broke down! No I am not "win hungry"! I am.. an advocate for smart breeding, an advocate for seeing anyone or anything reach the highest potential they can reach! I am miffeted though that a simple class as Halter, Western Pleasure and others use "artificial" tails, artifial gates etc when it should be the "natural movement" "the natural god given apperance" that shows off a horse. Thank God for those who use their horses as they were so well Domesticated. This country and countries around the world would never have been expanded if it were not for the horse and those that threw a leg over them. Thank God for the Secretariates that have given us great races, the Doc Bars, Poco Bueno's, that have given us the best cow horses in the world, Byerly Turk, Darley Arabian and Godolphin Barb they gave us the Secretariates and on and on. Well all I have to go and plan out the new foals career and start filling out those Futurity Entries!

additional info... http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html

This is an awesome post! She gives this lecture in a shorter version. To say that she is very passionate about this topic, would be an understatement. I spent some years ago now, the day with Dr. Bennett, well actually one day and then at a couple of different classes at Equinology. She retired from the Smithsonian I believe after 20 years. She is a character but pure genius. She rode at the Dorrance benefit in DFW Tx, gosh don't remember how long ago that was either. She's a trip to say the least. Absolutely brilliant and I am so happy to see this post, even though it's from a few years ago and not much has changed in that area.It's awesome to know like minded people. My experience with my Vet friends who work at the race tracks in the bay area say it's a job but it just breaks my heart. How they start those colts/fillys so early and it's horrible to watch. Anyway. Thank you, for this. Marj

I have to say this is my favorite Topic here on the board .. no nonsense .. straight up information that is all to true!! karen

This supports Topazdreams post....

Pintohorsewoman, You asked why arguments started on another forum regarding this issue? Not sure as I haven't read the other forum. However, it may have to do with some who post opinions as fact. I agree with some of what is said here, but there is very little fact and mostly ALL opinion. If posters have REAL facts it would be nice to post references to those facts. Otherwise, state it is an opinion. I'm guessing there are many many well educated horse folks here and maybe some of them feel they're being lectured to by those that want to save the world from all the EVIL horse owners and trainers? just a thought........ : ) BTW, I don't like to train too early but IMO 6 is too late. But that is just MY opinion and not one I'll try to cram down everyone's throats. : )